Curiosity and Its Value to Non-Profits with Cindy Wagman

[00:00:00.130] – Speaker 1
Hi there. Before we get started, I wanted to let you know that later in this episode there’s some language that may not be appropriate for younger listeners. It’s because we were talking about appropriate ways to communicate and what could be some red flags. And today’s guest, Cindy Wagman, is describing a time that a gentleman she was speaking with used some really inappropriate language with her and her team. So because of this, if you have a younger person with you, maybe save this episode for a later time when you can listen on your own. Thanks very much. Let’s get to the episode.

[00:00:32.210] – Speaker 2
It’s not up to us to make assumptions about our donors. If ever you’re in doubt around how they think or feel about the work, listen to them, ask them. We really do project a lot of our own feelings and beliefs onto what we think our donors think and feel and almost always wrong.

[00:01:04.710] – Speaker 1
Good day and welcome to the Leading with Nice Interview Series podcast. My name is Mathieu Yuill and we want to help you inspire others, build loyalty, and get results. Now, today’s guest, as usual, and very excited about and I came about being introduced to her in a really unique way. I signed up for what looked to me to be like a really interesting webinar. And sure enough, it was I learned a lot. It was great. And I was like, Yo, this person I would like them to my neighbor I want to sit in with wax poetic about the way we approach business over like maybe a glass of wine in a barbecue. And so I reached out and said, hey, can we talk some more? Because she is so good at what she does. I had to wait a little while to get a slot. But today I’m joined by Cindy Wagman, who’s the principal of the Good Partnership. She helps nonprofits and so excited to have here today. Cindy, thank you so much for coming.

[00:02:01.550] – Speaker 2
Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited.

[00:02:04.330] – Speaker 1
Perfect. Okay. So again, if you listen to this podcast, you know what we’re all about, that we’re ultimately trying to share with you people who practice leadership in a way that we think is the right way into the future and also practices great values. Cindy is one of those. And the first question I have for you is this. I want to focus on issues nonprofits are commonly grappling with and how the Good Partnership is helping them. And I know that you help with clarity. But to start what inspired you to get in the world of fundraiser and nonprofits? What’s your story?

[00:02:42.390] – Speaker 2
Yeah. So I’ve always been involved in the nonprofit sector. I’ve always volunteered in high school. And I definitely found that that felt very comfortable for me. And I didn’t really think of a career in this space until I was in University. And actually during the summer one year, I met two professional fundraisers. And I thought, oh, I’m already doing this. I was fundraising. I was leading different fundraising initiatives at school for local women’s shelters. And I thought, oh, I can get paid for this. How cool is that? So really, that’s how I came into it. I, at that point, made a decision that that’s what I wanted to do with the rest of my life. And so have been fundraising ever since. And a lot of what I would say has sort of been the driving force behind my business is trying to do good as a business that serves nonprofits. And there’s been some really interesting decisions we’ve had to make along the way through that.

[00:03:57.010] – Speaker 1
Yeah. So let’s dig into that. I remember when I was a woman in my life who’s been really insightful and mentor to me. I had a name for my company, and it had a lot of emotional meaning to me. And I used this leading with Nice title for a book I wrote a long time ago. And she said to me, Matthew, I love your company name. I get why it’s important to you, but you just got to call it Leading with Nice. That’s who you are. And I said, oh, but what about those companies that they hear that and they write it off? She’s like, you don’t want to work with them. And so tell me about the good partnership. I can imagine there was some not a struggle in a negative way, but there is definitely some processing in arriving at it. Tell me. I’d love to learn more about that.

[00:04:42.150] – Speaker 2
Yeah. So there’s been, I would say, two significant guiding principles for us or for me as a leader of the company. The first is to live our values. So we have a strong commitment to social justice, to anti oppression and anti racism work. And we have made decisions along the line that I would say probably not the most profitable, but that aligned with our values. We’ve given up big partnerships that have served us very well, but there were reasons why they didn’t make sense for our values and walked away from them. We’ve said no to work that didn’t align with clients that we won’t work with because we don’t agree with. They’re not aligned or their practices are not aligned with those values and even the products and services we offer. So when I started consulting, I was researching, okay, what do consultants do? I didn’t really know. And a lot of it is giving advice.

[00:05:50.170] – Speaker 1
So I was going to say, if you can actually, we can shift gears. You can tell me what consultants that help me as well. Oh, my gosh.

[00:05:55.680] – Speaker 2
Yeah. And I mean, it’s really good advice, right? A lot of consultants have great experience. They know what they’re doing, and they are in the business of giving that 30,000 foot perspective to organizations so that they have clarity, can move forward working with our niche small nonprofits, which was the other decision that we made to exclusively work with small nonprofits. I learned really quickly in practicing and giving that advice and doing more traditional consulting work that that’s not where they struggle or that’s not only where they struggle, and that it felt really uncomfortable for me to take a lot of money, especially a lot of money for a small organization to take a lot of money and only give advice, knowing quite confidently that that advice would not ever turn into action. And so a lot of what we do as a company is focused on trying to get organizations into meaningful action, and it looks very different than other consulting agencies.

[00:07:05.550] – Speaker 1
So what was the Genesis then of the good partnership? Tell me about the philosophy of that then.

[00:07:14.410] – Speaker 2
I don’t want to say I fell into consulting, but I was at a point in my life where I was in a very comfortable job. I was the director of development at the business school at the University of Toronto. For anyone who knows it’s, very corporate, very big institution. But my background I have a degree in women’s studies. I worked in small organizations. And while I was on that leave with my second kid, I was approached by a mentor of mine who said, I’m working with this really great organization. They need someone to do a capital campaign. Would you be interested? And my mentor was a consultant. And through conversations with her and a couple of other people, I said I would be interested in doing the campaign if I can do it as a consultant. And really for the first time in my career, I felt like I could ask for what I wanted, which is really scary. But I said, these are my terms if you’re interested. I’d love it. I would be so delighted. It was fantastic. I’m happy to share. The organization is called Hotdogs. They’re a documentary film festival and organization.

[00:08:31.790] – Speaker 2
And I had that job. I had all the things. I certainly didn’t need this work, but it was exciting for me. It was exciting to do it as a consultant. So they said yes, and we did that. And it gave me enough stability to start the business, because at the time, my older son would have been about four, my younger son would have been about six or seven months old. And I live in Toronto, which is expensive. And so it gave me that cushion that I think a lot of consultants don’t necessarily have. And then it grew again from trying things, listening to the clients that we were serving and trying to understand what works for them and how we can really give them value.

[00:09:23.510] – Speaker 1
Yeah. You know, I think for sure there are consulting opportunities where it’s simply giving advice. But I think most organizations today, I had somebody say to me recently like, oh, I’m thinking about doing what you do. Just give advice and I was like, I don’t know if that’s true or not. If I just give advice, like, there’s so much or you’ll train on something, and then it’s like, I’m just going to do it for you. Let me just do it. It’s going to be way better and you’re going to be happy because the outcome will be great. It’s about knowing where that line is of how much to speak into.

[00:09:57.370] – Speaker 2
Yeah. And really what the client needs. There is a lot of need for that advice for guidance. Absolutely. And the more I’m learning about I’m actually studying to be a coach, actually a neuro coach, looking at how our brain guides our decisions and how we change the shortcuts in our brains. Anyway, I’m working around that. And there is a lot of advice and work that leaders need, but there’s also hands on getting it done. I always say in fundraising, success comes from consistent implementation more than anything else. And so a lot of our services and actually, this is an area that we’re growing is doing that. We work with organizations for extended periods of time, consistently doing their fundraising operations and running their fundraising program. And they’re happy. We’re happy because things are getting done.

[00:10:57.030] – Speaker 1
Yeah. It’s interesting. I thought when I started doing this, I’d be going from project to project. In fact, like a consultant who did what I was trying to do, and they did it in the late nineties, early 2000s. He explained, it like, you have three months and then like a little runway to find a new contract. And I think we started with three contracts and we’re still doing two of them, and we have not dropped one since. It’s so weird. And then you look at it and you’re like, this is the third Christmas party I’ve been to with you. You’re like, how did that happen? How am I even at your Christmas party? This is crazy.

[00:11:31.900] – Speaker 2
Yeah.

[00:11:32.720] – Speaker 1
So this is great. People are listening to this already and they’re thinking what Cindy is saying is really resonating. So maybe can you give that person some tips? If they look around their organization and they answer yes to this, they might be giving you a call. So what are some of those indicators that they might see that like, okay, I need Cindy and her company’s help.

[00:11:56.740] – Speaker 2
Yeah. So there’s a couple of different ones. The first is if you or anyone in your organization is responsible for fundraising but you really don’t want to do it, you’re really good fit for my book, which was called Raise it the Reluctant Fundraisers Guide to Raising Money Without Selling Your Soul or online course.

[00:12:20.090] – Speaker 1
If you miss it. I totally get it. It’s so embarrassing to Corey to your own stuff. I’m going to say it again. It is the Reluctant Fundraisers Guide Raising Money Without Selling Your Soul. Yes, I totally get it. You don’t want to pump yourself up, but it’s worth checking out. So that’s the book. So first, go on, keep going.

[00:12:37.800] – Speaker 2
Thank you. Yeah. So I’m doing and really growing a lot in the area of looking at, again, the neuroscience behind our reluctance to fundraise as a sector and to help people overcome their mental models around fundraising so they can get out of their own way. So if that sounds like you if it feels like you are constantly living in the ideas phase but never can figure out how to turn that into action because your brain is yelling at you to stop and we can work on that. The other big thing is if your organization is at a point where you’re ready to invest in fundraising, like maybe you’re thinking about hiring your first fundraising staff or maybe you had a fundraising staff 18 months ago and they lasted for six months and it didn’t really work out well. And you’re really frustrated with that whole I don’t have a big budget, so I can’t afford someone with a lot of experience, but I can’t afford to manage someone without a lot of experience. That’s also where we come in and we fill that gap. That really sweet spot of you don’t have to have a huge budget.

[00:13:57.260] – Speaker 2
You may have to be able to invest. It’s like hiring a junior staff person. But our network of consultants come in and they run the fundraising program. They’re so experienced, efficient, no BS. And they get things done. They take the work off of the shoulders of the executive director instead of hiring someone in house, which usually adds to the overwhelming work of the executive director. So those, I would say, are the two sweet spots.

[00:14:23.050] – Speaker 1
If you’re listening, I want you to hear this. Listeners. Cindy just said it’s like hiring a junior staff member. And I’m not sure if you remember from earlier on in this conversation when Cindy talked about running a part of U of T’s development. So for the cost of a junior development person, you get a lot more than that. And that’s a great part of the consulting, too, right?

[00:14:43.980] – Speaker 2
Yeah, exactly.

[00:14:45.410] – Speaker 1
I’ll be honest. When I consult with nonprofits in the communications or technology piece and they’re looking at development, I actually often recommend consultants because one of those things like communications as well, you don’t always need to have somebody on staff, even if it’s two months a year where they’re kind of sitting around totally in their thumbs. It’s wasted money. So I like that model. So what’s happened now is somebody said, oh, that is me. That is me. And they’re going to stop listening to this podcast. They’re going to go to work tomorrow and they’re not going to call. So what are these roadblocks that these small nonprofits run into where they just kind of stop them from making that leap?

[00:15:24.710] – Speaker 2
Okay, so this is I could talk forever about this, which is fundraising is like the dirty F word of our sector, especially for small organizations. And so most people who are probably listening to this, they didn’t get into this work to raise money. That wasn’t their calling. They’re here because they want to change the world. They want to do good things. They’re executive directors or whatever their role is within the organization, program, staff, what have you. That’s what they’re comfortable with. And we hear stories over and over again in our sector about how bad fundraising is or how it’s a necessary evil. And what happens is our brains start to make decisions we’re not aware of. I call autopilot around fundraising that prevent us from ever getting started. So if we understand how the brain works in neural networks, our brain creates shortcuts to make decisions really quickly. So we’re not aware that those decisions are happening. But our brain is making them on autopilot. And 90% of the decisions we make every day are completely unconscious. And the conscious decisions we make every day, they’re about 35,000 of them. So that gives you indication of perspective.

[00:16:50.870] – Speaker 2
And what happens is some of these shortcuts are really great. I watched my kids learn how to read. I saw how much practice they need just to understand how to read the word the right. These shortcuts in our brains make going through the world a lot easier and more efficient. But sometimes they don’t service. And in our sector, a lot of the shortcuts are that fundraising is icky or that our work just doesn’t have the same value. We shouldn’t get paid competitively because there’s a martyr syndrome that we’re doing this because of the mission. There’s a lot of internalized beliefs around fundraising as a really problematic power dynamic, which in some ways it really is right. Traditional capitalist philanthropy can be very problematic for small social justice based organizations. But what happens when our brain is on this autopilot? We don’t take a step back and evaluate those decisions. We take it as truth. And so really what’s happening is our brain likes to protect us from harm. And as a sector, we hear that fundraising is harmful to us. It’s uncomfortable. We don’t want rejection. We don’t want to take money from people who we think are bad.

[00:18:22.010] – Speaker 2
There’s so many things, and so we just shut it off. Our brain without even giving us notification is just saying, no, we’re not doing that. And in order to move forward, we have to start to rewire those shortcuts and really understand that there are different models of fundraising and fundraising. I always say fundraising doesn’t just fund your mission, but the activities you do in fundraising can also enhance it if you do it well, yeah.

[00:18:52.730] – Speaker 1
When you were speaking about the dirty word of fundraising, I was thinking about when I worked with a nonprofit, and one of our communication experts or content managers is like, okay, here’s some language that we’re going to use that Yuill really drive people to your give now page because they’ll be really self motivated. They’re like, well, that language seems pretty salesy. And we’re like, yeah, great, right? They’re like, well, no, that’s not who we are. We’re not talking about the beauty and passion of this. And I’m like, yeah, because no one will care. And I’m sorry, I hate to tell you that, but it’s just how it is. And we have a real problem with it, right?

[00:19:29.360] – Speaker 2
Yeah.

[00:19:29.960] – Speaker 1
And it’s not just social justice issues. I’ve worked with animal care nonprofits where they should just love the animals. We shouldn’t capitalize on their cuteness. Cuteness is the best. Like, you helped me out here.

[00:19:42.720] – Speaker 2
And honestly, I always say it’s not up to us to make assumptions about our donors.

[00:19:48.710] – Speaker 1
Yeah, 100%.

[00:19:50.490] – Speaker 2
If ever you’re in doubt around how they think or feel about the work, listen to them, ask them, and you’ll get a much clearer idea of what messaging is actually going to resonate. Right. We really do project a lot of our own feelings and beliefs onto what we think our donors think and feel and almost always wrong.

[00:20:15.310] – Speaker 1
I bet you go in and you ask three or four questions, and it helps you understand who their audience is. And then you repeat back to them what they said. They’re like, no, that’s not what it is. That happens to me all the time. I’m like, but you just told me this. They’re like, yeah, but we really want to talk about this. I’m like, I guess you might want to talk about it, but it’s not what’s going to drive interest.

[00:20:36.250] – Speaker 2
Yeah. And there’s an overlap, right? There’s definitely been a swing. There’s been a lot of swings in our sector around fundraising, communications, around messaging, et cetera. And there’s some people who think, like, we should just do anything to get the money in. And there’s some people who think we can’t find a common ground with our donors. And the reality is there’s a middle where our language as an organization, our messaging, our values, our mission absolutely overlaps with those of our donors. That’s what we’re looking for. And then we lean into that overlap. So the first thing is there are some donors who shouldn’t be giving to your organization. That’s okay. It’s okay to say no if you’re getting red flags that someone really is giving to you for reasons that are against your mission. But also you can bring your donors along for some education. But that’s not in the same breath of asking for money.

[00:21:38.800] – Speaker 1
Right?

[00:21:39.140] – Speaker 2
So, yeah, there’s a lot of space there.

[00:21:41.070] – Speaker 1
Yeah. We worked with a food bank who they have been offered principle, some from a payday lending organization. Yeah. So I said, listen, let’s do some research. Let’s look and see what goes on. And the data came back that our clients were their main customers, and it led to a perpetuity of poverty. And I said, so there might be a reason why this company wants to give you a bunch of money, it may not be the same reason you want that money. So that was a big conversation we had, and the decision was made.

[00:22:20.010] – Speaker 2
What was the decision?

[00:22:21.610] – Speaker 1
Yeah, they took the money.

[00:22:24.290] – Speaker 2
Interesting.

[00:22:25.170] – Speaker 1
Yeah. We stopped working with them as part for part of that reason, because I felt and my colleagues at work, at Leading with nice felt that there’s a Robin Hood model where you steal from the rich to give to the poor. And then there’s that model, which kind of felt like stealing from the poor to give to the poor.

[00:22:44.000] – Speaker 2
Yeah, exactly.

[00:22:49.050] – Speaker 1
I left full time work also to, like I remember saying to my wife to do consulting. I said, I either want to work less and make the same or work the same and make more. There’s no work more and make more than one. I just want to live an awesome life. Right. I’ve missed too much. That mindset really allows us to walk away and not Corey. Did it mean it put off a vacation for another year? You wanted to go on. You did. But I would have been felt very guilty on that vacation.

[00:23:14.370] – Speaker 2
Yeah. No, I think you made the right decision. I can’t imagine from what I know about those companies. But, yeah, we’ve absolutely sat I am my team, and we were three. I wouldn’t call it young anymore. One of them was young, but we’re in our late 30s. Two of us, we sat down with a prospective client one time, and he literally said, fundraising is like, I mean, I don’t even know if I can say this word.

[00:23:49.610] – Speaker 1
Well, we can always believe, don’t worry, it’s a family show.

[00:23:53.130] – Speaker 2
Yeah. He’s like, oh, yeah. It’s like pouring yourself out. And I was like, you can’t say that to me and my team. And it was the most awkward conversation.

[00:24:10.880] – Speaker 1
Yeah.

[00:24:11.450] – Speaker 2
And I ghosted that. I was like, I don’t even have the tools to be able to call someone out on that. I was so difficult. But I said I just was like, no, this is not if you’re calling us force in our first meeting.

[00:24:30.610] – Speaker 1
Yes. There’s so many levels of problems. We’ll move on from this second. But I watched the morning show, which is on Apple TV, and in one of the segments, spoiler alert if you haven’t watched it yet. But it’s not a big part of the story. So don’t worry. The weather person in talking about Groundhog Day, says the Groundhog would be my spirit animal. And the producer says, hey, listen, like, totally makes sense. You would say that, but it’s appropriating Indigenous culture. So tomorrow, can you just apologize for it? He does a bad job of apologizing, but I understand that level of unawareness. But, like, clearly you’re talking to three women and you use description whoring yourselves out. That is a whole other level of unawareness, right?

[00:25:17.280] – Speaker 2
Yeah.

[00:25:20.930] – Speaker 1
You’re going to need a different kind of consultant in a little while if you keep doing that. Right?

[00:25:24.570] – Speaker 2
Yeah. Oh, my goodness.

[00:25:26.520] – Speaker 1
Okay. Well, you made the great decision, too. I think I’m going to congratulate you on that. Okay. So last but not least, I just want to talk on this for a few minutes. I want to give a potential client of yours a little head start. So you’re going to show up and what are some common things you’ll want to work on? What are you going to want to find out from them before you can really get digging in?

[00:25:47.780] – Speaker 2
So the number one thing I always like to get from clients before we even start is just understanding where they’re coming from. Right. Like we do a big discovery process where we can’t look to the feature without understanding the past. So where has your funding come from in the past? How did it feel to do that? All of that, I think, is really important. Very often we try to jump to the solution, but we have to properly define the problem. So it’s the first thing. And part of that is systems and understanding where you keep information, which sounds like a really nitpicky thing, but you’d be surprised, like a lot of organizations don’t have good ways of tracking information. I mean, there’s nothing wrong with spreadsheets. Absolutely. But think about that. And especially for organizations or for leaders of organizations that want to create a lasting legacy for their organization to live on beyond their time there you have to have good systems. That’s the first thing. The second thing is the number one thing. And I say this over and over again is listen to your donors, get to know them. And my favorite way of doing this is with donor meetings.

[00:27:09.810] – Speaker 2
I mean, yes, you can do surveys and all that kind of stuff, but if you can have a donor meeting a week where you’re just listening to their stories, why they support you, what they care about, you won’t even need us, quite frankly, because you’re going to find that fundraising that’s going to work for you. That is the number one thing that we do. We start with every single client. I teach it in every single way. I teach fundraising. So many people are reluctant to do it. There’s so many stories going on in our head that think it’s very scary and unsafe, but it’s really valuable. There’s no ask. It’s just listening and curiosity being authentic. That is the number one piece of advice I can give to an organization hands down.

[00:28:02.390] – Speaker 1
I love it. One of my favorite nonprofits, the Miscocker Woods Youth Foundation, does every week in the summer, does a thing called the President’s dinner. They invite them up to the summer camp. One of the chefs there comes from a fancy pants background, so he does like a special dinner. It’s pretty low cost for the foundation, but it looks really fancy. And about ten donors are just there to talk about exactly that. There’s no ask, but there’s usually large donations are left behind just because they were treated like human beings and shown appreciation.

[00:28:34.690] – Speaker 2
Yes, it works for corporate donors, foundations, high level individual donors, but it also works for your monthly donors or like broadbased support community donors. The more you understand your supporters, the more you can scale your fundraising, the more you can ask in meaningful ways. Create your fundraising strategy in a way that actually is going to get you results. It is so foundational and yet so many people don’t do it.

[00:29:04.810] – Speaker 1
Lastly, totally off topic, but I think it actually does relate to what we do. What you do? What I do. I had a coworker. It’s all in the presentation. And so I know you have put some thought and care into your background here on video. People are watching this on YouTube being like, oh, I’d like Cindy’s Little. Nook. Do you do this intentionally? Yes. This is what I imagine.

[00:29:25.010] – Speaker 2
Yeah.

[00:29:25.480] – Speaker 1
Same with mine. My secret is this is a curtain back here. People don’t know. This is just like a curtain.

[00:29:31.380] – Speaker 2
I like it.

[00:29:32.170] – Speaker 1
So if you are talking to a funder who’s going to be maybe making some connections over Zoom or whatnot, give us a few tips on making a good space.

[00:29:42.190] – Speaker 2
Okay, so I actually heard from a woman who’s very research oriented. I didn’t look into the research, but she was saying that they’ve done some research that plans greenery, increase trust on Zoom calls. So it’s fake plans here. And so that’s why I changed my background recently. And then I try to keep it not too cluttered. I like also fake flowers. And then this is just a fun fact. I have a very modern aesthetic, but I have these little figurines that belong to my great grandmother. She collected them and it’s part of my memory of her. So I have those there and some of my favorite books. And sometimes I’ll pull books and recommend them to people. So I have those there handy. But the most intentional with the plant.

[00:30:39.810] – Speaker 1
I like that. I have a tiny one I asked for the plant sent me the least amount of anything. And this is what I got. But I like the idea. I’m going to add some more greenery. I have that idea. So I have some Lego in a B picture. That’s pretty much why. Listen, Cindy, before we go, a few thank yous. Just before this interview today, I got off the call Amber Tomkkins, who’s our education and training coordinator, and she’s just like working on this project, so I can do this. Naomi Grossman is my EA, and she helps get all these questions ready. She helped get us coordinated and booked together. Jamie Hunter, if you’ve seen this on social media, which is probably what brought you this podcast. He did all that work out there. Austin Pomeroy is our audio editor. He’s going to Austin’s going to make sure edit edit. That great, Jeff Anhorn takes a video then and it makes it amazing. And while I’m doing all of this, my wife’s upstairs making sure the kids stay quiet. So thank you Allison for making this podcast possible today. And Cindy, of course to you.

[00:31:39.550] – Speaker 1
And I think one of your youngsters was dust busting. He put a pause on that. He put a pin in that dust busting until later. So I thank him for that as well too. Cindy have a great day. People can find you out.

[00:31:50.310] – Speaker 2
We’re the the the good partnership. Good partnership. Almost social media or just look me up, Cindy Wagman perfect.

[00:31:56.710] – Speaker 1
Alright. Have a great day. We’ll talk to you then.