Collaboration Where You Least Expect It with Angie Peters

Angie Peters:
I’m honest about what I’d like to see us all do together. Then I help guide a conversation where everybody gets their ideas out on the table, so that we end up with something that’s co-created. Even if, for argument’s sake, my idea was better, or at least I thought it was better, even if that were true, the group product is better because the group product can get done.

Mathieu Yuill:
Good day, and welcome to the Leading With Nice interview series podcast. My name is Mathieu Yuill. We want to help your team inspire others, build loyalty, and get results. Now, today I’m super excited, because I’m speaking to a friend, and somebody I’ve done school with, and somebody I really admire for their work in Toronto’s nonprofit sector. Today, we’re speaking with Angie Peters. Now, you may know Angie from her 2013 TEDx Toronto Talk, called Socially Sourcing To End Poverty. And if you haven’t seen it, you’re totally forgiven, if you want to pause right now and go check out that TED Talk, because she laid out a value that she holds in really clear language. And it was this. And I’m paraphrasing a tiny bit, but she said, “Where we are born should not influence our ability to pursue our dreams.” And it was so powerful that I wanted to discover a bit more about what that actually looks like to live out and to do that intentionally.

Mathieu Yuill:
Now, she’s lived this out both by founding the ZOE Alliance Inc, a for profit social enterprise, and in her current role as the president and CEO of the Yonge Street Mission. We’re going to get into it, but I asked Angie to join me today because her unique approach to getting this type of missional work done is really fascinating, and I think there’s a lot to learn and take away.

Mathieu Yuill:
So if you’re driving, don’t do this. But we’re recording this during the pandemic, it’ll be released during the COVID-19 pandemic. If you’re like me and at home at your desk, take a pause, open up your notepad, get some pen and paper, because you’ll definitely want to take some notes and some learning away from this conversation. So all of that said, Angie, welcome, and thank you for making time today.

Angie Peters:
Thanks so much, Mathieu. It’s great to be with you.

Mathieu Yuill:
First of all, how are you? How’s your staff? How are you? As I said, if you’re listening to this years from now, we’re in the middle of the COVID-19. How is your staff at the Yonge Street Mission? You must have just felt such a greater need and been overwhelmed with the work you do during this time.

Angie Peters:
Yeah, it’s hard to put it into words, what this period of time has been like for the staff and for the community that we serve, but we’re good. We’re good, because I think we’re a reasonably healthy organization. The team is so strong and so passionate about the work that we do. And though on any given day, one of us may be tired and another one of us may be invincible, between the team we’re able to hold each other together and hold each other up and continue moving forward in the work.

Angie Peters:
And the work is so important, because so many people have lost their jobs. The traffic at our food bank has tripled. That’s just one particular stat, and that’s just one part of the story, but the need is so great, and yet it’s really, really heartwarming to see community and donors and people and staff just rally around one another and be there for one another. It’s actually quite heartwarming.

Mathieu Yuill:
That is amazing. Also, not sure if it’s alarming or unfortunately not surprising to hear that food bank stat. We’ve seen a lot of that. Now, for those of you listening, a couple of years ago, probably two to three years ago, Angie was telling me about a project where she had … I don’t want to get into the specifics, because it’s not important for this message, per se. It’s just that the ethos is. And I said, wow, that sounds like a really big project. How are you and your organization going to do it alone? And she said, well, we’re not going to do it alone. We’re actually going to reach out and look for some collaboration opportunities, which is not that common in the nonprofit sector.

Mathieu Yuill:
So Angie, you’ve worked in private industry, nonprofit, and social enterprise. So does collaboration look different in those areas? And some of our listeners won’t have such a broad base of experience as you have, so I’d love that for them to understand where some similarities are in these different areas and where some differences might be.

Angie Peters:
Yeah. Well, on the one level, I think that collaboration is the same everywhere, in the sense that it is two or more parties who want to accomplish the same thing, who each have a contribution toward that end, working together to make it happen. It’s that simple. But I think where the nuances are, are in the cultures of the different sectors, if you will, in our society, and how that comes about. I think that in business, the way that you can originally approach your business objective can very much default to doing it on your own. It’s your business. What’s your unique value proposition? You get out there and you make it happen. And you only add in partners really in the context of helping you achieve your business goals, right? They’re your goals, and that’s fine. That’s appropriate. I’m not stating that as if there’s a problem with that, but you have your business goals and you bring in others to assist in reaching those goals.

Angie Peters:
In the nonprofit sector, if we are at our best, and we are not always, but if we are at our best, then our goals should be the same in common service areas. The community that we’re serving should be at the center of it and our organizational imperatives should be subordinate to that. So for example, you mentioned the project, Mathieu, from a while ago, the truth is what we exist to do at Yonge Street Mission, which is ending chronic poverty in a generation, it would be ridiculous to think that we could do it by ourselves. We can’t. We absolutely cannot. And the social sector can’t do it by themselves, even if we all work together really well. So collaboration is an imperative in our context, and I think that’s the key difference.

Mathieu Yuill:
So I hear you say, we can’t do it ourselves. Do you find that, I’m not looking for you to throw your professional colleagues at other organizations under the bus, but does that attitude exist widely, that there’s this idea that like, no, we need help, or is there some territorial instincts that happen?

Angie Peters:
Well, I think that what happens that gets in the way of collaboration in the social sector is the social sector. And so what I mean by that is any institution or sector of society that has been around for a long time has a culture and an ethos, and a means of distributing resources, et cetera. And the social sector in North America, and in Canada and Toronto in particular, is no different. And I think that actually, even what we call ourselves, like we call ourselves social service agencies, I think therein lies the problem, because then it becomes about different organizations who deliver a particular service, and the act of delivering the service is success. And so you want to deliver more of that service, which means you vie for more funding to do it. And then if there are more and more people or organizations that are offering the same service as you are, then you’re competing for resources to offer your service.

Angie Peters:
I think you can see where I’m going in terms of the wrong-headedness of that focus. That sounds a little bit more like business, doesn’t it? And that’s why actually when we rebranded it Yonge Street Mission, we called ourselves a local development agency, because when I worked internationally, we’d talk about development. And the goal is human development, it’s community development. It is an actual outcome in society for the better that is the checkbox, not we fed so many people, or so many people attended our workshops. So check, we did our jobs, go home and have a good evening.

Angie Peters:
If we’re serious about the work in the social sector, then we’re serious about the human outcomes. And when you get serious about the human outcomes, that’s where you find commonality of purpose, and that’s where the opportunity for collaboration is really there. Now, there’s still issues around resource allocation, but I think by and large, the sector is getting much better at that. I’ve seen, just in my short, only been doing this for almost eight years in Toronto, and I’ve seen dramatic improvement in a propensity to collaborate and to be aware of who brings what best contribution and how to work best for the outcomes of the population we jointly serve. There’s much more of that. And in COVID times, even much more. So that is a good thing, I guess, that’s come out of this crisis.

Mathieu Yuill:
That’s just fascinating, that during this time of crisis it’s actually led to better collaboration. I guess there is a real sense among people in the industry that it’s so much bigger than what they imagined before, perhaps. You did talk about one checkbox, and I actually wanted to ask you about the checkboxes you should have, because clearly collaboration starts at home. It really feels like in this arena of initiating a collaboration, somebody has to go first. And so therefore, this attitude, this ethos, starts at home. So I’m curious around the mindset.

Mathieu Yuill:
So oftentimes in my work, clients will say something to me like, “We want to change culture at our organization. So what are the things we have to do?” And it’s not that simple. I’m breaking it down very, very simply now, but often there are some basic paradigm shifts or some mindset shifts that you need to have. So I’m curious if you were to do like an audit of like, hey, is our organization set up today to start collaborating, or being intentional, or introducing a potential collaboration between two organizations, and I love how you call it a local development agency. That’s so cool. But is there a checklist of like, okay, you’re in a good spot to maybe start a collaboration or maybe on the other side, some warning signs that maybe you might feel this personally, but organizationally it may not be the best thing?

Angie Peters:
I think a good first place to start would be to look at your culture in the context of how the different parts of your organization work with one another. I mean, are you an organization of silos? And if you’re an organization of silos, then your first job is to get people working together internally toward a shared goal. Because if you have silos, then by definition, you have different parts of the organization that have different goals. They’re not running at the same organizational goal, or they wouldn’t be silos.

Angie Peters:
Now, that doesn’t mean there aren’t within an organization, it’s called running at the same corporate goal. There would be specific goals to each department. That’s appropriate. That’s logical, that’s obvious. That make sense. Every department contributes in its own unique way to the overall goal. But often what you find is an organization that has tensions within itself, because people are trying to pull the whole organization in the direction they prefer and everybody hasn’t bought in on one direction. So if your organization is struggling with that, then it’s going to be hard for you to have one face at a table with a bunch of other actors who don’t even report to you, and function well in a collaborative context outside your organization.

Mathieu Yuill:
Maybe this speaks more about how I have worked in the past than an actual reality, but I would just imagine there’d be, like amongst your own staff and amongst other staff, some territorial instincts, or when you introduce a joint project, the way another organization works, everything from how they run meetings through how they treat each other could potentially come into play. Is that a thing you’ve experienced, or is this just something that comes out of my own experiences?

Angie Peters:
No, no, it’s very real. And I would say that, candidly, for Yonge Street Mission, we’ve grown and matured over the years, and that’s normal. I will say that I think that’s normal in a stage of growth and development for an entity, because any entity that starts small has an entrepreneurial culture, and that has certain characteristics associated with it, which doesn’t actually lend itself too well to what is required as an organization grows and has multiple departments, more people, and you need to collaborate to get things done.

Angie Peters:
So in my season here thus far, we’ve been going through that transition, from grassroots startup, entrepreneurial kind of culture, which actually had a lot of silos in our own organization, to really a very long and deliberate process of developing shared vision and milestones, and an understanding of how each of us contributed to those, as well as a very intentional process of building into leadership so that it’s not all resting on the shoulders of myself or the senior team, but it trickles all the way through the organization in terms of our ability to identify opportunities, hear frontline staff wisdom and ideas, but also have us all be continuing to shepherd in the same direction and go for the same thing, and be innovative in how we do it, but not so much entrepreneurial. So I think the transition was from entrepreneurial to innovative.

Mathieu Yuill:
That is so cool. And you know, one of the problems I personally have with you, Angie, is that when I get to listen to you talk about how things are done, it always gets me excited and gives me new ideas. And I just remember hearing you speak about that. You’ve shared, quite candidly, some of the processes you went through to build into leadership development, to help shift and align corporate culture. And next year, so 2021 sometime, we’re going to have another conversation, and I’d love for you to share all of that with the listeners, because man, you did it so well. So I’m not surprised in actually hearing that.

Mathieu Yuill:
I’m sure if you’re listening, you’re probably also like, oh, I kind of get it. It is not just like, okay, I’m going to call up this other agency today and start doing something. You really have to have a whole shift of momentum in that direction. That’s just my observation. And I’d love to talk more about how you actually ready the organization for things like this. But another day, another day.

Mathieu Yuill:
I’m really curious now, then, when you approach an organization to collaborate, there’s a real potential that it could go horribly wrong, or even they could maliciously just steal that idea. So can you protect against that, or is that just one of the potential negative aspects of having this desire?

Angie Peters:
Yeah, I mean, it’s a good question. And I think actually the answer I’m about to give you developed over time. It’s not like I headed into all of this knowing this. I think it’s much like when I look back and observe even the experiences we’ve had at YSM, there’s a season of trust building. So I would say that the reason we have successful collaborations today with all the other agencies in Regent Park is because we’ve been working at it through something called the Regent Park Executive Directors Network, meeting on a monthly basis for eight years. There’s trust being built between the leaders. You get to know one another. You have to build trust. You have to know the people that you are seeking to potentially partner with, have a sense of their character and commitment. And then I think the early things should be small and easy and low risk, so that if they’re stolen, you can live with it.

Angie Peters:
The other thing that you might want to do, and I did this, and this wouldn’t work in I don’t think some contexts, but in a social context, it can. We were talking about integrated service delivery models, where we would have a shared population, a shared need, and figure out what each of us can do uniquely to integrate, but not duplicate services. And there’s a lot of tensions that rise with people when you start talking like that, because then that means, well, does that mean somebody else can be better at delivering something I currently deliver, and I’m going to have to give that up? And then what do I do? So there’s fear, and it can be very warranted. Depending on the size of the agency and their funding base, it could be very detrimental for them. And then frankly, for the leader, it can be very detrimental for the leader, with their board of directors. So it’s not unfounded fears.

Angie Peters:
Another thing I did, and in hindsight, it seems to have been wisdom, early on was in the early conversations about integrated service delivery, we did, because we were in the process of doing it anyway, an analysis of all our programs, and we were developing our strategic plan. And there was a couple of things that we were doing historically for whatever reasons, and we really weren’t doing all that well. We were kind of doing them off the side of the table, and I don’t think we were doing our best for community in those couple of spots.

Angie Peters:
So the first thing I did was I looked for partners to transition those programs to. I gave stuff away, and I gave funders with it. So then I think somebody has to walk the talk first. So I think that in a business context, I would say it’s more about making sure you know who you’re talking to, and have a good sense of them, and then start small. Limit your exposure.

Mathieu Yuill:
I love that line. I wrote it down, is look for innovation, not duplication. When you’re looking to collaborate, that is a great, kind of, will this bring us innovation and not just, like you said earlier, more of the same. Very cool. Okay, so I have one more question, and I guarantee you by now there are people who are listening and they’re already having ideas in their head brewing about collaborations they think would be great. You’ve done this so often. So I’d love for you to put on your Sherpa hat, and I’ll take this analogy a bit further. We’re now assenting to the summit of Everest, and you’re our guide. And I’d love for you to share some other advice. And you spoke about it earlier, wisdom gained over time, but what advice do you wish you had gotten earlier?

Mathieu Yuill:
Because this has been really, I’ve witnessed the Yonge Street Mission, led by you, have real success in this area. I hear about it from people that don’t know that I know you, and they tell me about what they’ve done with the Yonge Street Mission. So to me, that’s third party verification of success. So I would love just to hear what today Angie would say to 2013 or 2014 Angie, or even earlier.

Angie Peters:
Go slow. Now, this is going to be depending on how you’re wired as a person, but I’ll contextualize it. I’m wired, after multiple assessments of all different types, all kinds of good executive coaching, I am wired as a visionary and a fast start. So if you’re trying to bring a group together around accomplishing something, even if your intentions are good, what I learned the hard way is that if I dump the truck on everybody up at the front end of what I see, it actually doesn’t help. It doesn’t help. It doesn’t mean that I’m not going to eventually get my ideas and thoughts out over time or that they won’t be part of shaping what we do together, but I learned it was really important for me just to hold some of that in, not like I’m hiding it or being sneaky, but it’s too much information. It just overwhelms and it actually closes down conversation. And that’s the last thing you want to do.

Angie Peters:
I’m honest about and very transparent about what I’d like to see us all do together. And I’m honest about the fact that I have ideas. Then I kind of help guide a conversation where everybody gets their ideas out on the table in a progressive way, including me, so that we end up with something that’s co-created and developed at the pace that everybody in the room can absorb and own and feel good about. And then that will live on. That will have legs, rather than, even if for argument’s sake, my idea was better, or at least I thought it was better the way I designed it, and the group idea and the group design is good, but I don’t think is good, if I was going to say something like that. Even if that were true, the group product is better because the group product will get done.

Mathieu Yuill:
Listen, I’ve made a list. That’s amazing. Here are my seven steps. And I just made this list up while you were chatting. I didn’t make it up. I heard what you had to say and here’s, so those of you looking to maybe go into your boss’s office, or if you’re the boss, looking to share this excitement you have for a collaboration, here are the seven steps. Okay. So the first one is this. Assess your organization. Two, build the ethos and culture internally. Three, have a season of trust building with those you might seek to collaborate with. Four, start small, where if it doesn’t work, it’s okay. Five, look for innovation, not duplication. Six, go slow. And seven, strive for true co-creation, because co-ownership is going to be better every time. I love it. I love that in 27 minutes, you’ve laid out the game plan.

Angie Peters:
Wow. You make me sound so smart, Mathieu, my goodness.

Mathieu Yuill:
Listen, you are so smart, Angie. I’m not lying. Friends, if you’re not in Toronto, I know some of you listen in the United States, is it ysm.org? Is that the website?

Angie Peters:
Ysm.ca.

Mathieu Yuill:
Oh, ca, sorry. So if you do not know the Yonge Street Mission, check out ysm.ca, because definitely you want to glean from there, and they have some great stories on the website. You want to glean from there some of the approaches they take, and I will offer to help ghost write your book. No, there’s real learning here. This is amazing. Angie, is there anything that I didn’t ask or any final thought you want to leave, and think of speaking to somebody directly who is, now their eyes are wide open and they’re ready to start going. Is there anything finally you’d like to tell them or share with them, or maybe even point them towards a resource?

Angie Peters:
Hmm. I would say stay grounded, because the work of collaboration is full of ambiguity. And being able to pivot in the moment, and holding some things loosely so that the group can get to where the group wants to go. If you’re participating in something like that, it’s really important that you are really, really grounded in why you’re there. And it helps when you’re in a room, when you’re in a conversation, when things are flying all over the place, for you to stay centered and able to help the group, because you know what’s important and you’re not losing sight of that.

Angie Peters:
And most of the time, when groups fly off in different directions as they tend to do in collaborations, especially if it’s community development and community, you can be a centering force if you’re really grounded, and every group needs somebody to be that centering, grounding force.

Mathieu Yuill:
Amazing. I will be honest, and I’m sure some of you, as well, listening, I did have flashbacks of high school group work while you were describing it. Especially those of you who are listening who are really entrepreneurial. Angie is very entrepreneurial. So I just want to encourage you that if you don’t think you’re wired or built this way, because you’re entrepreneurial and you’re used to doing things on your own, you can definitely do this. In fact, you might be the perfect person to put this together. You know, so often you’ll hear people say, “Oh, I never imagined we could work together.” Well, that’s what you, as an entrepreneurial minded person, that’s what you do. You do imagine how it can happen.

Mathieu Yuill:
Angie, listen, this has been so amazing. I want to thank Austin Pomeroy. He does all the audio editing. He’s our audio producer. He’s amazing. Thank you so much. The reason we sound so great. My voice is actually two octaves higher, but he makes me sound amazing. Cindy Craig helped get everything organized. I want to thank her, as well, for doing that. Thank you for listening. If you have any action items and are listening to this today, if you’re going to work on something, I’d love to hear about it. Drop me a note at leadingwithnice.com, and I’ll share it with Angie, too. And we’d love to encourage you in that. I’m speaking for you now, Angie, but I’m sure she would love to encourage you in a collaboration.

Mathieu Yuill:
And if you want more of this type of information, there’s a blog post about this conversation on the website, and you can find out more about the Yonge Street Mission at ysm.ca, which I strongly encourage you to do, because A, they do really cool stuff. B, their approach is truly unique, and C, they’re a cause worth giving a care about. Angie, thank you so much for joining me today.

Angie Peters:
Thanks so much, Mathieu. This has been a pleasure and a gift.