Leadership Happens When You Put Others First with Omar Ha-Redeye

Omar Ha-Redeye:
There is a learning opportunity in absolutely every encounter that we have, whether that’s with other individuals, but in particular, with other individuals who have experiences that are different from us.

Mathieu Yuill:
Good day, and welcome to the Leading with Nice Daily. My name is Matthew Yuill. Today, we have Omar Ha-Redeye on the program, and I’m really excited to have him on. I met Omar several years ago, and since then I’ve been watching his career grow and prosper. And he’s a leader now in Durham region in Ontario, but he’s had lots of experience. He started out in nuclear medicine technology. He has gone on to do some schooling in public relations and corporate communications. He has since gone on to earn, not one but two, law degrees. And currently, he is serving as the Executive Director of the Durham Community Legal Clinic. Omar, thank you so much for being here today.

Omar Ha-Redeye:
My pleasure. Thank you for having me, Matthew.

Mathieu Yuill:
So as we talked before we recorded, I am really fascinated at how you have always approached what you do very much on the ground. And I shared an experience. I remember seeing you on the news because often media does turn to you for a opinion and your thought leadership. And it was a time in Toronto where tenants had been temporarily evicted from their apartment building. It was a fire or something had happened there, asbestos, and they were living in a park. And I remember seeing you there in the park advocating for the legal rights of the people who had not been able to live in their building. And since then, you’ve gone on to always be in the work you do, basically, in the thick of it. What is it that influences you to be right there in the mix?

Omar Ha-Redeye:
That’s a good question, Matthew. I don’t know what it is that drives me specifically, but I think a big part of it, perhaps paradoxically, is that I don’t think I’ve had much ambition for myself personally. And so despite having done numerous degrees and doing a lot of things that other people from the outside look as accomplishments, that’s not really where I think I get my satisfaction from. The satisfaction really comes from, what is the difference that I’m making in the world? And usually you can see that most directly in the effects that you have on your neighbors and in the communities that you live in. And so I think that’s always been, regardless of where I was, a very important part of what I’ve been doing.

Mathieu Yuill:
So you have actually traveled far and wide. How do you think about community for yourself? When you think about community, how do you typically define it? Or what’s your paradigm there?

Omar Ha-Redeye:
I mean, community, I think as most of us define it, is usually most immediately the community in which we live in and the people that we’re around. There’s obviously communities that we have in terms of our professions and our industries that are also very localized. But I think I know where you’re going with this, and, Matthew, we are very much in a globalized economy, increasingly in a world community. And we’re seeing that now, obviously, with the COVID-19 pandemic. But really we’ve seen that now for many years, probably the entirety of our entire lives, where we are one big community in many ways, and many of the challenges that we see ahead of us, including things like climate change, are going to require a greater acknowledgement that we’re working together collaboratively to face those types of issues.

Mathieu Yuill:
I appreciate that you thought I was that far ahead of you on where I was taking it. I hadn’t thought of that, but that is actually an excellent point. One thing I’m seeing a lot of is on Facebook in the past two or three years, this trend, this theme, of community groups, like for local neighborhoods, springing up. And it’s interesting. This is where I find to be getting a lot of my local news, like what is that new shop opening up on the corner? However, in that same group, I can find somebody who’s well-versed and knowledgeable about an issue like climate change that you just discussed. I actually hadn’t thought that much about community before, so that’ll give me some things to think about.

Mathieu Yuill:
However, since you mentioned COVID-19, and if you’re not listening to this around the time that we’ve recorded it, in Canada, we’re about week six or seven, where we’ve been asked to stay at home, we’ve been asked to physically distance. And so it feels like we’re right in the middle of it. We don’t know, of course, when it will end. And one of the topics I wanted to talk to Omar about is, during the tsunami in Southeast Asia, he was there and working in the field. What I’m really curious about, Omar, is what does crisis look like across the board? Now, of course, different times will be different, but are there any common themes that we see in crisis?

Omar Ha-Redeye:
Certainly. I mean, I think regardless of what type of crisis you’re dealing with and where you’re seeing it around the world, there’s going to be concerns. There’s going to be anxiety. There’s going to be a lot of uncertainty about what the future holds. But I think what I took from my experiences after the tsunami and working in Indonesia, was also the enormous amount of resilience that we see where the devastation there was, in some cases, complete. It was entire villages that were wiped out. And yet the remnants, the survivors that were there, you would see them all together, four, five, six people with some kids running around and make the assumption that perhaps that’s a family. And they would say, “No, this was my street. These are my neighbor’s kids. And that’s my other neighbor’s wife. And we’re all just trying to get by and come together to get through this very difficult time.”

Omar Ha-Redeye:
And so I think that’s the one of the few sentiments that I really took with me going forward is that the amazing ability of individuals, of communities, to come together to get through difficult times is something that I do think we see irrespective of culture and irrespective of society.

Mathieu Yuill:
When you are leading in a time of crisis… And for those of you who are new to the show, influence is leadership and everybody has influence. So I’m not speaking just about the person who has a title that means they’re the president or the boss, but leadership can be found right across the spectrum. So, Omar, when you’re leading in moments of crisis, what are some really important leadership skills, aptitudes, qualities that are important to rise to the top?

Omar Ha-Redeye:
So it’s interesting, Matthew, because I don’t really see myself necessarily as being much of a leader or an influencer, although many people, of course, indicate otherwise, especially looking at titles, as you’ve mentioned, that I’ve had. And maybe that’s because I think one of the best ways that you can influence others is really to support them. Can you imagine going from Canada, putting a team together in Canada, going across the world to Southeast Asia, and then trying to tell people what we think is best for them, even though we have doctors and nurses in our team, trying to tell them what’s best for them? It wouldn’t work. And so what is necessary, and that’s in a crisis, but I think it’s also necessary outside of a crisis, is really to start by listening and hearing what the needs are of other individuals and then having a discussion and a dialogue. And that dialogue may very well consider what you’ve heard and propose some solutions and some ideas, but those ideas and solutions may not be definitive.

Omar Ha-Redeye:
And it has to be done, I think, with a sense of humility and a sense that you may not have all the answers. And the answers that you come up with, may need to be refined. And that’s a healthy attitude, in my opinion. And it allows you to build the type of ties and relationships that can actually get you to do things. And if that’s what it means to be a leader, or if that’s what it means to have influence, then sure. That’s the preferred approach.

Mathieu Yuill:
You mentioned something that I would know as this… I’m a big fan of Stephen Covey, and he has this rule or nature’s law. And it’s this. It’s to seek first to understand, and then be understood. When you talked about working with doctors and nurses in the field and trying to figure out what is best, you must have seen, and perhaps practiced, a lot of that.

Omar Ha-Redeye:
Yeah. I mean, not deliberately. I mean, I don’t want to make it seem as if this is done in a manipulative fashion. But I think Covey, who you mentioned, was also the author, correct me if I’m wrong, of The Habits of Highly Effective People. I mean, in looking at what works, it kind of makes sense just generally. Nobody likes to be told what to do all the time. I mean, sometimes that’s necessary, and understandably, in situations like the emergency room, so there are exceptions to this, people just need to do. And there shouldn’t be much of that reflection and philosophizing and everything else. But those types of environments are the exception, and they’re not the norm. And so even in those situations like a disaster, it’s very rare that you’re dealing with very, very high acuity needs where the communication stops and it’s just action. When those moments arise, certainly that’s what needs to happen.

Omar Ha-Redeye:
But outside of that, I think in order for those types of teams to operate effectively, you need to build the trust. You need to build the trust and the respect and the relationships there so that you can go into a highly functioning mode when that acuity hits. And outside of that, really, I think it should very much be a, I don’t want to say bottom up, but it should be a collaborative type of approach towards things. Because I think part of leadership, or effective leadership, is about personal growth as well. And I think maybe that’s part of the reason why I’ve been drawn to those types of positions over the years. It’s not out of a desire to necessarily have control or to tell people what to do. It’s exactly the opposite. It’s learning and exploring new ways of doing things, and, hopefully, finding those new ways of doing things from the other individuals that you’re working with. So I think that’s very much the appeal from my perspective.

Mathieu Yuill:
I don’t know, Omar, you’re describing leadership in a great way, as far as I’m concerned. Okay. I want to switch gears for a moment. Because there’s so much I could talk to you about, but only so much time. So I just want to talk about your work with Fleet Street Law. And for those who aren’t familiar, this was a collective sort of organization of lawyers. Yes?

Omar Ha-Redeye:
Yes. So what we did there, as a new lawyer, as a young call many years ago, there was a lot of concern that I had about setting out and setting up my own law firm and stuff like that. And so what I did was I gathered a bunch of friends. None of them knew each other. Made some introductions and said, “Hey, is there a way that we can work together?” Not create a law firm necessarily, but work together to support one another. And so we did that, and it worked for some people, didn’t work as well for others. But we tried to take some of those lessons and then share it with other new lawyers who came after us to help facilitate that transition, to explore the legal profession further. And so it continued for a number of years. We did that up until the point when I was expecting our child. So, we have a nine-month-old now. And, I had to wrap that up in anticipation of those responsibilities.

Omar Ha-Redeye:
But what it allowed us to do was really explore the many different ways in which people could practice law. But more importantly, to your previous point, practice law in close connection with their communities in a very cost-effective way, in a manner which reduced the legal expenses that clients would actually have to incur, and to still do it in a very competent fashion. Because the support of your peers and colleagues were immediately around you to be able to assist in any way possible. So it was very much of a model which was continuously fluid, and we were experimenting and doing things in many different ways. So there wasn’t any one way of doing things. But that in itself was a learning experience, to go through that over many years.

Mathieu Yuill:
Now and there was a sense of co-leadership, co-mentorship involved in your work there, correct?

Omar Ha-Redeye:
Without question. Yeah. So, I mean, technically I was quote-unquote, the leader of this initiative. But it was not a leader in the sense that I was telling people what to do. It was very much the opposite. So dispersed leadership, very heavy on the mentorship, of course. Because everybody needs a mentor. And also, like I said, continuously fluid and continuously changing over time.

Omar Ha-Redeye:
So that mentorship, I find, went both ways. And so if I was mentoring a young lawyer, or a younger lawyer, on a certain aspect of law, usually what happens is that they would come with the more challenging questions or issues that they’re facing, which is why they’re looking for that help. And sometimes those were questions that I hadn’t thought about myself. Maybe I had never encountered it, or I just never thought about it. And so it doesn’t mean I necessarily had the answer, but you would look at principles or look up laws and look up different things and try to troubleshoot that problem, which wasn’t a theoretical problem, they were dealing with these problems in the real world, and try to find solutions.

Omar Ha-Redeye:
And so what that means is, that it helps facilitate and develop those skills where you’re problem-solving and identifying solutions and doing that with others. And so in the same way that leadership, in its ideal, is a growth opportunity for anybody who’s in those roles, I think mentorship is also a form of leadership where you’re giving, but you’re also taking quite a bit in terms of insight, in particular, to the issues that people face, but also potentially what those solutions might be.

Mathieu Yuill:
So how has that informed the work you’re doing today at the Durham Community Legal Clinic?

Omar Ha-Redeye:
So the Durham Community Legal Clinic, we’re a community legal clinic, there’s over 70 of them across the province of Ontario. And what we do is serve primarily low-income residents in that region. And so it’s about three quarters of a million population over a geographically dispersed area. And so it is legal services. I mean, that’s something that I’m accustomed to, but with a very, very significant difference. These are people that are not just at the poverty line, they’re well below the poverty line. And so they often have a number of unique issues, whether that’s certain disabilities, physical or mental, that may impair or limit their ability to participate in the workforce, it could be issues of discrimination and exclusion. Quite often, they don’t have enough money to pay rent or to buy groceries, or basically do the type of things that the rest of us often take for granted.

Omar Ha-Redeye:
And so those come with some very, very unique challenges. Because it’s not simply a matter of providing legal advice like ABCDE, here’s what the law says in a checklist format. It’s trying to figure out how you impart that to individuals who may not have the same level of financial literacy or legal literacy as the people who are providing that advice, but also has some very, very different social and psychological and economic pressures on them that may make the advice that you give to someone else very impractical and very unrealistic. And so we have to be a little bit more creative about how we do things.

Mathieu Yuill:
What we talked about before we were recording, and this is what I’m really curious about, is oftentimes when people engage in quote-unquote, leadership conversations, they’re talking about people that are all generally of the same mindset, they want to improve, they see steps that are important to move forward. In this work, I’m just curious if as you seek to serve, which is, I think, a great leadership quality, is there a difference, is there something to be mindful of as you’re working with your clients or people that are seeking out your services?

Omar Ha-Redeye:
Certainly. I mean, poverty is never going to be alleviated entirely. That’s just not a realistic goal, because that’s part of what we will see in any society, no matter how affluent the society in of itself becomes. And so it’s about understanding that this is a continuous work in progress, and that you’re not going to get a sense of satisfaction from saying, “Oh, I alleviated poverty in this area from 5% to 4%.” It’s not amenable to those types of metrics.

Omar Ha-Redeye:
And also the clients who are involved may not necessarily be as appreciative as someone else in a different context, because they just have so many other things going on. And so part of that requires a little bit more internal resilience. It requires that you’re not looking necessarily for that affirmation from the individuals that you’re providing the services and helping. You’re helping them, but they may not express or recognize or appreciate how you’re helping them. And so that gives itself to some very, very unique challenges, especially when you’re trying to lead a team of individuals who are providing those services.

Omar Ha-Redeye:
So the stressors, if you will, that’s the way I’ll describe it, the stressors of dealing with individuals who have higher acuity needs will invariably affect staff members and individuals who are on the front lines. And so if you’re leading a team who are on those front lines and dealing with those issues, the hope is that you can try to build the type of internal supports and the internal resilience, and I’m not talking now about internal to the individual, but internal towards an organization, where you can provide those types of supports and allow for an understanding that the work that is involved has its own unique challenges.

Mathieu Yuill:
So what are some really practical things people could do? So they’re listening to this podcast right now. They’re now thinking like, “I’ve only had to be in a position where I’m working with people that are in my same socioeconomic class, but I have a desire to work with people that maybe experience a level of crisis that is different than me on a regular basis.” What are some really practical things you might suggest to people to help prepare themselves to be leading and helping in an environment that includes a population like this?

Omar Ha-Redeye:
So the first thing I would say is that it’s commendable to set out and do this type of work. But instead of thinking about doing it, let’s start doing it. And I remind myself of that as well. We all need to be doing that type of work, at least in some capacity, in our lives. I really do think that there’s a sense of fulfillment for every person to build in some aspect where they’re giving back to community and giving back to society.

Omar Ha-Redeye:
That being said, as you’ve already alluded to, we don’t necessarily know or understand what the needs of people are and how we can best meet those needs. And so in getting involved with new areas or new services or new communities, then I really think that it does require, again, an understanding that those individuals may have insights, they may have perspectives and knowledge that may not reflect our own perspectives and knowledge, but those perspectives and knowledge are what allowed them to actually, not just survive, perhaps even thrive. And it’s perhaps challenging to describe individuals who are at need in the lower SES as thriving, but in their contexts and in their perspectives, they very much are.

Omar Ha-Redeye:
And we know this, for example, that there’s a higher degree or higher percentage than the average population of drug use or drug abuse among the homeless population, for example. But a big part of that is because a lot of those individuals have had their own historic traumas that they have gone through. And so we saw this in the insight case with the safe injection site case that went all the way up to the Supreme Court of Canada. And some of the data that was presented to the court in that context illustrated that, I think it was something about 75%, about, the individuals who were taking these drugs and abusing drugs in that way, and also were usually homeless, were survivors of sexual abuse. And so this journey into using drugs and the situation that they found themselves in socially, was very much a way of them self-medicating themselves. And that became a necessity largely because they didn’t have the social supports and the ability financially to get the other type of therapies and treatment and help that many other people in society would have.

Omar Ha-Redeye:
At the same time, because that case was fought against the government all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada, there was a narrative that these are worthless drug users who are homeless and they’re not doing anything with their lives. And I think that type of narrative only comes about, aside from the fact that it is very judgemental and makes a lot of assumptions, but it only comes about because people who are conveying those types of statements and sentiments don’t really understand the people that they’re talking about or describing. And I think, going maybe a step further, they haven’t even tried to understand because they’ve already made the assumption that they know better.

Omar Ha-Redeye:
And I think that’s going back to what the theme is, I think, in the past 20 minutes of what we’ve been talking about here, is that there is a learning opportunity, from my perspective, in absolutely every encounter that we have, whether that’s with other individuals, but in particular, with other individuals who have experiences that are different from us. And so that’s what I think I’m trying to do on a regular basis. And it’s helpful for me to have this conversation with you, Matthew, because it helps me reflect and reiterate, I think, what those values are that I think I’ve held to my core over my life and to try to re-embrace them as well, which we should be doing on a regular basis.

Mathieu Yuill:
That’s great. If I can put some of what you just said into my words and see if I’m getting it, and I think I am, and I really love it, is you’re advocating that as we approach any situation to really leave assumptions behind and come with a strong sense of curiosity. So we’re asking the questions, why or how, instead of saying things like do or try.

Omar Ha-Redeye:
I think that’s a good way to look at it, but I think also, if I was to take it further, I mean, some assumptions are okay or good. We have to make some assumptions that, for example, if we’re going to get involved in community work, that we’re doing it based on the assumption that we actually want to, or that we actually are trying to help. But I think it’s good to challenge assumptions. It’s a slight difference there.

Omar Ha-Redeye:
It’s not that we’re abandoning all of our assumptions. It’s that we’re trying to recognize what the assumptions are that we’ve made, because many of those assumptions are done at a subconscious level, and then trying to scrutinize and challenge them. Because it’s a lot easier just to say, “Oh, I have no assumptions,” but still maintain many of them subconsciously unintentionally. Whereas if you adopt an approach where you say, “Well, I don’t know what my assumptions are, but I want to try to figure out what those assumptions are so that I can challenge them,” that’s a much more reflective experience. And it’s one that’s more likely to drill down personally, to actually figure out what’s going on internally so that you can help more in the external environment.

Mathieu Yuill:
Okay. Wow. I have a hard time thinking of what I’m going to ask next, because I’m just listening to some of your thoughts, and I’m reflecting as you’re saying them. And also recognizing that in my questions, I had some assumptions, and the question for me now is, okay, how do I challenge those assumptions in my question-asking even? I just want to talk about two more things before we wind up. So you have a new child or you’re having a new child?

Omar Ha-Redeye:
Yes, we do. He’s a nine-month-old. Yep.

Mathieu Yuill:
Congratulations. That is amazing. So what will be important for you to model for your child as they grow?

Omar Ha-Redeye:
Yeah. That’s a tough question that I think every parent asks themselves is, who are we and are we really going to be the type of person that we’d want our kids to look up to? He’s obviously still very, very young. I think one of the bigger challenges that I’ve had is that as busy professionals, so my spouse is also a very busy professional and went back to work before I did, it’s really, how do we actually not just have a relationship, but actually have a very… I talk all this stuff about having deep and meaningful relationships with the people that we work with and communities and stuff like that. And how do we do that as professionals who are incredibly busy without ignoring that most important relationship that we have with those closest to us? And so that’s not just kids, it’s also significant others. And I have parents who are increasingly getting older and older. And so, that is a challenging question.

Omar Ha-Redeye:
And I think it goes back to our sense of community that you started out this conversation with where that is, for me, probably the most challenging issue, which is, as much as you want to give and you want to help communities and you want to help people around you, you really have to start doing that at home with the people that you’re closest with the most. And maybe encourage them to also give back and be involved in community, because my spouse doesn’t necessarily do that and doesn’t understand all the things that I do, and all the unpaid stuff that I do, even though she understands that it’s very important, for example. But maybe she won’t give back in that particular way that I do, but maybe there might be other ways that she might explore or look for other ways to do that.

Omar Ha-Redeye:
So, I don’t know. I don’t think I have an easy answer for you there, Matthew. Because I think I’m still trying to figure that out. That’s part of me still continuously challenging my own assumptions about what it means to give back is that maybe I need to be giving more at home and trying to find a way to do that.

Mathieu Yuill:
That actually probably is the most right answer anybody could have about parenthood, for sure. I’m still learning. I think my mom at her age would probably still say the same thing about parenthood.

Mathieu Yuill:
So finally, you seem to always have something in the pipe. What can we look forward to? Do you have any written articles coming out? Are you going to be at any workshops? I know, obviously right now, as I mentioned before, we are in the middle of COVID-19 here in Ontario, so that might limit your public speaking, but what’s next for you? What’s coming up? What can people look forward?

Omar Ha-Redeye:
All of the above. I mean, I’m very involved in our legal community, as well. It’s one of those communities that I described earlier. Continuously giving talks and writing, and even now giving talks online. So that’s what we’re doing these days, and doing podcasts like the one we’re doing right now, and just being involved. And I think that’s important. It’s a good way for me to feel that I’m contributing in some way. So anybody who is interested in connecting with me, I mean, it’s one of those things that I typically do at any public talk I give, especially for young lawyers or law students is I say, “Hey, if you want to have a conversation, happy to do it.” Scheduling might be a challenge. We might be looking at a couple months down the road, but I’m happy to have a conversation with anybody who’s actually trying to explore any of these issues, including career issues or life issues or anything else, leadership-related or otherwise, Matthew.

Mathieu Yuill:
Where is one resource that you love going to, to learn and soak up knowledge and help you reflect and grow? What’s one resource you enjoy?

Omar Ha-Redeye:
Oh, it’s so cliche, but it’s Google. We all use Google every day. But I probably use it, I have no way of knowing, more than the average individual, because there are constantly words and phrases that I’m not familiar with. I regret those days when I end up on Urban Dictionary because they usually don’t give me the answers I’m looking for, but that’s part of just continuously try to learn and grow. So I don’t think there necessarily is any one particular spot, because it depends on what I’m looking at any given day. And my interests are pretty varied.

Mathieu Yuill:
Thank you so much. I’ve been looking forward to this for a while. We first touched base a few months ago, and I have been looking forward to just hearing your perspective because it’s not one that I find as common in this journey of my own about learning about leadership. So thank you very much.

Omar Ha-Redeye:
It was a pleasure, Matthew. Thank you for having me. And it was great to connect again. It’s been far too long.

Mathieu Yuill:
I want to thank our listeners. To learn more about this topic, visit leadingwithnice.com. And on our way out, I want to thank the people that help make this podcast come together. Jeff Anhorn, Andrew Park, Austin Pomeroy. They all are involved in the production of this, and I am so grateful for them. So for Leading with Nice, my name is Matthew Yuill, and we want to help you inspire others, build loyalty, and get results. Talk to you next time.