Leading Through Depression and Anxiety with Ezra Byer

Mathieu Yuill:
Look for ways to sing, look for ways to encourage others, to help others, and that in turn becomes a source of personal replenishment as well.

Mathieu Yuill:
Hey, and welcome to the Leading With Nice Interview Series, where we want to help you inspire others, build loyalty, and get results. My name is Mathieu Yuill. Today on the show, we have my good friend Ezra Byer. I came to know Ezra, this is important for the context today, I was driving home my family from my in-law’s house, and there’s this stretch of strip plazas that some have a payday loans in them, maybe an adult bookstore. I saw what I thought looked like a church maybe, I was like, oh, that’s really interesting. I went home and Googled it, and I’m like, oh, what would a church be doing here in this odd location. I got an email back from Ezra. Ezra has an amazing story. From Canada, to go live in the Eastern US, back to Canada, and then out to live in Idaho. It’s just such a great story, so I want him to tell just a tiny bit of his journey because he’s here to talk about a book that he’s written, one of several books he has, this is the newest one, called Walking with a Limp: Thoughts of Hope for the Depressed and Discouraged.

Mathieu Yuill:
Ezra, before we talk about the book specifically, just give us that overview of your life’s journey and how it’s led you to arrive at this.

Ezra Byer:
Well, Mathieu, thanks for taking the time to let me on the podcast, appreciate it. Have you ever heard of the Canadian writer Farley Mowat?

Mathieu Yuill:
Of course, yes.

Ezra Byer:
Okay, so I feel like my early days were a little bit like Farley Mowat. I was born in Montreal, moved with my family up to Northern Ontario, about eight hours North of Toronto, little town called Cochrane, the home of Tim Horton. That’s about our only claim to fame, Tim Horton’s Coffee, for those in the States. We moved up there through this yellow school bus. My dad bought this yellow school bus, packed all of our belongings into it, moved up to the North, sold the school bus for more than we paid for it, and we touched down in this 160 acre farm with our basement flooded with water, like four feet of snow. It was just a mess.

Ezra Byer:
That’s where I grew up, in this little area eight hours North of Toronto. From there, moved to Cincinnati, Ohio when my parents separated and was there about seven years living in the inner city. Totally different change of pace. Moved to Virginia for three years after that, after I completed my undergraduate degree. Then from there, moved back to Toronto for five years, and now I am in Idaho and that’s where I am today.

Mathieu Yuill:
I guess the biggest question I have out of that is, was it a short school bus, or was it the long, like 48 seat school bus?

Ezra Byer:
No, it was a long, it was totally long, yeah. It was full, and I remember, one of the funniest parts, we pulled into Cochrane. Have you ever been there?

Mathieu Yuill:
No, no, I haven’t had the pleasure yet. It’s on my bucket list.

Ezra Byer:
You need to go there, then you need to take the train up to Moosonee, which is like six hours north of Toronto. It’s as far north as you can drive by car in that particular region of Canada. So, my dad pulls in, and we’re about, literally, four kilometres from our house. We know that, and we pull into this gas station, the bus is totally on empty. My dad pulls into the gas station in this huge bus and he says, I’d like $5 worth of gasoline. They put $5, we get to our place, and I remember this distinctly, because when people came and bought the bus, they bought it and we told them it was out of gas. They got to the end of our driveway, it stalled, and it was done. So, yeah.

Mathieu Yuill:
How have I not heard this story before? This is a great story. Just so you know, from now on, that’s what you lead with, all right? The bus story.

Ezra Byer:
The magic school bus.

Mathieu Yuill:
So, this book is really about the journey and struggle with trials of depression, anxiety. Somewhere along the line, you must have experienced, or had something, all this collection of learning, to put this down on paper and share with others. Has it been a lifelong thing, or is it just maybe a smaller period of time?

Ezra Byer:
A smaller period of time. It’s interesting, I don’t know if you’ve ever read Johann Hari’s book, Lost Connections, a very, very popular book on the topic of depression, wrote it several years ago, but a bestseller. It was interesting, he listed about nine different reasons why we suffer with depression. Obviously it’s not totally all inclusive and things like that, but some of the major things he mentioned, basic things, like not getting out in nature, not having meaningful work, losing a sense of identity, all these different things, about nine different things. As I began reading that list, I realized when my wife and I moved to Toronto, it was as if seven of those converged all at once. Obviously, I wasn’t really thinking through this process, but we moved to a city, didn’t really know anyone, as you described, kind of were plopped down in an area that a lot of low income and people that had a lot of needs, which is where we want it to be, but that takes a toll on you emotionally over time.

Ezra Byer:
I remember it was a February morning, I woke up and my wife’s getting ready to go to school. I’m sitting there, and I’m like, what is wrong? All of a sudden, it’s kind of embarrassing to admit, I guess, but I’m sitting there and tears just start pouring down on my face. I’m like, what is happening here? In that moment, I realized, okay, something is not right. It was from there, there was a two, three year journey of really some dark nights. I’d say almost dark nights of the [inaudible 00:06:23], where it’s really, really just tough to really see any light forward, and all sense of hope would just be gone for weeks at a time. It was out of that, that really the idea of this book came about. I said, you know what? That’s kind of how I operate as a writer. I’m a full-time freelance writer right now. When I’m struggling through something, I write. That’s what really helps me. So, that’s kind of how this book all came about.

Mathieu Yuill:
You just mentioned right now you’re a freelance writer. You’ve had a plethora of jobs over the years and I won’t detail them all, but we came to know each other, again, you’d come to Toronto, very intentionally, to plant this church. That’s how we came to know each other. Why I wanted to have you on a podcast about leadership and talking about leadership is depression and leadership, we know, can go hand in hand, but it may not be common or an easy connection for a lot of people. But the reason why I wanted you to speak about it, in particular, is I watch your approach to your faith as very hands-on. I watched you set up a food bank and pharmacy with band-aids [inaudible 00:07:32] like a dispensary. I watched you really be intentional about making friends with people that were new to Canada or going through that refugee process. It was just very a tangible faith. I don’t see this depression that you’re talking about as an abstract concept for you. It actually impacted your ability to do what you are hardwired to do. What you think? What’s your reflection on that?

Ezra Byer:
Yeah, one of the jobs that I did this summer was, I wrote between 50 and 100 articles for a group called the themedicinementors.com. What they do is they interview leading physicians around the United States, Harvard, Yale, et cetera. I would take the podcast, the interviews that they do, kind of like what we’re doing, put them in the form of an article, and what was interesting, over and over and over again, these leading professionals would talk about anxiety and burnout. You would think, okay, well, my goodness, they have it all together. They have a well paying job, but they said, you know what? It’s so hard to relate what we’re going through to, say like a life coach, because how do you describe walking into a patient’s room and seeing a patient pass away. All of a sudden, 10 minutes later, you’re in another place.

Ezra Byer:
I think that’s one of the things that depression can do, is it can give you a feeling of isolation where you feel like no one else in the world understands you. To a degree that’s true, because your story is unique, but it can leave you feeling like it’s really a debilitating feeling, where you understand, okay, man, I can’t press forward like I did. So, the idea of Walking With a Limp comes out of that. Different writers, mainstream writers, whether it’s you take on one extreme from Malcolm Gladwell, to say someone like Jordan Pearson, Toronto, they’ve used biblical references to inform their writing. My writing from the life of the Old Testament, of Jacob, describes his struggle and where he had a really unique experience, that, for the rest of his life, he walked with somewhat of a limp.

Ezra Byer:
My basic point is that all of us in life, we have these different things that cause us to limp a little bit. Maybe it’s anxiety, it could be something tucked away deep down inside, and we’re tempted to get really frustrated and say, man, well, why do I have this? But I believe if there’s one theme, you asked about a theme that’s run through my life, I would use the word empathy. That when we have a limp in our lives, and something that causes us not to perform to the level that we would like to perform, we’re often tempted to say, okay, well, I want to get rid of this and then move on with my life. But often I’ve found that that is often the route that can be used to help us have a higher level of empathy for other people. Certainly, my depression journey gave me a unique opportunity, now when I walk in a room and I sense someone that’s struggled with depression, I can sense it very quickly just because I know my story,

Mathieu Yuill:
It’s amazing, if you struggled or lived with depression, and then somebody who is in a very dark place at that moment starts telling you about what they’re feeling. It is very recognizable. You can usually pinpoint the exact time. You’re like, oh yeah, I felt that exact same way at this time. Just before this podcast, coincidentally, a friend phoned me who is actually struggling with depression right now. They’ve been talking with their employer, it’s a very open place of employment where they can talk freely, more employment places should be like that around mental health. He’s talking about leaving, and the thing he said to me was this, he’s like, Mathieu, there are so many books to deal with depression and you’re right, you know this as well too, yours is written like you’ve been a pastor. I would say, you start, you never stopped being a pastor probably. There’s a lot of biblical based stories and examples are throughout your book. Somebody who’s a Christian would probably recognize and be in a very familiar territory.

Mathieu Yuill:
However, when I was reading through the lens of somebody who was not churched, for example, there’s still a lot of great content. For somebody that isn’t familiar with biblical stories or the idea of what a faith structure is about, but as listening to this right now and is like, man, I’m willing to try anything, what would you tell them? What’s in your book that somebody who is not familiar with any of this might find helpful? What would you say to encourage them to pick it up?

Ezra Byer:
One of the podcasts I listen to is Mike Rowe, he does this podcast called A Curious Mind With a Short Attention Span. It’s like, hey, 10 minute thing real quickly. I would say this book is almost more for the curious mind with a longer attention span. It’s someone that really is going through the throws, the really awful part of depression. I found that there’s often two extremes. We tend to just say, okay, well maybe you need to just buck up and get over it. I think especially maybe previous generations, we tended to do that. Then on the other hand, we might have some people that would say, okay, well you need to just focus on the depression and basically almost encourage it, to a level of where, okay, this is something you’ll always, and you never really confront some of the issues that might be at the cause of the depression.

Ezra Byer:
I would say this book, it’s certainly not written from a clinical perspective, but it’s someone who’s in the trenches. For me, I’m a curious personality. That’s, that’s who I am. So, I will read books from a wide variety of backgrounds and writers, people out who do not share my faith values, things like that. That help better inform, and sometimes it changes the way I think, so if someone’s not a Christian and they’re thinking about it, I would just say, yeah, there’s things in the book that are geared towards Christians, but I would hope that sometimes reading a different perspective than maybe the one that you typically read often that new way of coming to a problem or approaching a problem, it might not immediately change something, but it might trigger something where you say, okay, well, you know what? I never thought about it quite like that. That might crack the door open, shed some light on your situation, and give you a little bit of hope.

Ezra Byer:
There’s a reason the subtitle is Thoughts of Hope for the Depressed and Discouraged. As you go through the writing process, you think of all of these elaborate subtitles that you could give that might be catchy, but that’s really what it comes down to, is when you’re going through the deepest parts of depression, you feel hopeless. I hope that through someone reading this, that they say, okay, you know what? My life is worth living, there’s purpose, there’s meaning, and then that better informs the way that they lead.

Mathieu Yuill:
I agree with you. I have a short attention span, but you write so conversationally and you’re a gifted writer, so as you would be writing, I would say, well, what about this? In my head. I’m like, oh, he’s starting to address that right now. So, definitely I agree, there’s a lot in here for everybody. Also, when you’re in those moments of like, I’ll try anything, this is a great thing to try. This is a leadership podcast and I’ve wanted to talk about mental health in leaders. It’s a lonely place to be. It is lonely to be the leader. You bear a tremendous burden on the success or failure of what you’re leading. There’s a lot of pressure. Man, it can be really tough. I would like to speak more about mental health for leaders on this podcast.

Mathieu Yuill:
We also celebrate leaders on this podcast that do things differently and take risks. When we talk about really leaning into storytelling or empathy on this podcast, those are not typical how to lead courses at your university or college or what your mentor might’ve taught you. But those people are listening today that are really feeling handcuffed by their depression, and in chapter 15, you discuss some great steps to take in the midst of those darkest times. You actually say in the book, I don’t want to give you a how to, like, that’s not what this book is about, but there are some things you can do. Can you share a few of those with us?

Ezra Byer:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Right now I’m working on two books with two different clients, both on leadership. Mental health side of things just absolutely comes up time and time again. So, it’s a huge thing. A couple of things I would say, if you’re going through a time, number one, recognize where you’re at. Sometimes that’s hard and sometimes it really takes some self evaluation. Sometimes it takes someone looking into your life. For me, one of the things that motivated me to want to get help, to get counselling, was looking at it from my wife’s perspective. That’s something that we often don’t talk about enough. We tend to say, okay, well my depression, my anxiety, I’m just going to get through this as though it’s not having an impact on those around us. When I saw the impact that it was starting to have on her, I said, okay, I don’t like the idea of going to a counsellor, that’s just me. I just didn’t like that thought. But I said, you know what? I’m going to do that. That was a really big thing, recognizing where I’m at.

Ezra Byer:
Second thing is, I use a simple phrase, “Reach up and reach out.” Now, the first part comes from a God perspective, where I do believe there’s a spiritual component of reaching up to God for strength. But the second part is reaching out to other people. Do you have other people in your life, outside, like your spouse or close family member, that can speak in and offer hope. Again, it’s so easy to isolate and say no one cares, but I’ve found time and time again, there are so many people who have similar struggles to what I face. So, that’s a big thing.

Ezra Byer:
Third thing is simply this, reorganize your schedule. This can be a tricky one, but it’s been so helpful. Simple things. Again, I was talking to someone who struggles with depression. They said, you know what? This didn’t help me very much at all. For me, it did. Exercise is a huge thing for me right now, where I use this thing called a Bowflex Max Trainer. I love it, it’s a cross between a stair climber and an elliptical. When I don’t use that frequently, I start feeling anxious. So, that part was just better understanding myself, but then also sleep patterns. I was one of those guys where I like to go shorter on sleep because I want to be productive, but then realizing, okay, you know what? Actually, I need to sleep more. I need to sleep. Oddly enough, I felt better when I slept. It’s a crazy concept, I know.

Ezra Byer:
I think here was a big thing for me, I was always used to being a guy that was 110%. You give me a job to do, I’m going to go 10%, 20% beyond that of what you’ve required, because I want to deliver with excellence. There’s still a part of me that just likes to do that. I try to have that approach with clients, but I’ve also found that there’s a reason we have emotional boundaries in our lives. When we exceed those too far, we stretch ourselves beyond what we’re supposed to go. We can only do that so long before something cracks. That’s the third thing.

Ezra Byer:
The last thing, just very simply, is this, find ways to sing in the darkness. There’s a best seller book out there called, Make Your Bed, by Admiral, I think it’s McCracken or something like that. He talks about the story of how he went through the Navy Seals and all of that. They’re going through hell week and they’re all sat in this freezing pot of water. They just have to sit there for hours and hours on end. But he said out of that, one of the group, and they were so ready to quit, they’re shivering and they’re shaking, but one of them starts to sing, and he called him an old song of hope. I think it was Amazing Grace. They began to sing together and they began to just sing in the darkness of this, this cold, rugged group of soldiers. And through that singing, they were able to endure that time. That’s something that has often stood out to me, is that when we’re going through our darkest points, look for ways to sing, look for ways to encourage others, to help others. That, in turn, becomes a source of personal replenishment as well.

Mathieu Yuill:
What a fabulous bit of imagery, soldiers in dark in freezing cold water, because that’s what depression sometimes feels like and to sing. If you’re listening to this at a later date, we’re recording this in the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic. I’m in Toronto where stores are closed, restaurants are closed. What I’ve witnessed is leaders, people who run companies and organizations who I’ve always saw as very stoic people, share how they have shed tears and cried when having to make decisions about laying off employees that have been there for 30 years. There’s a real movement afoot where it’s actually okay to be vulnerable and to be honest and show some transparency. If you’ve listened to this podcast, you know I love data and there’s lots of great data that shows how being vulnerable and honest actually leads to a more productive workforce and will increase your bottom line. There’s a lot of great business reasons to do it. But there’s also a lot of great human reasons, which is what makes business run, which is why it works.

Mathieu Yuill:
One of the themes of this book is that you have really encouraged honesty with yourself. As somebody who’s gone through this, what are some telltale signs that, I don’t want to go all Jeff Foxworthy, like you might be depressed if, but what are some telltale signs like if you’re feeling this or this is what you’re experiencing, that maybe you should go speak to your doctor or a professional?

Ezra Byer:
Yeah. I just saw a post in the Toronto Star, I think it was. One in 10 Canadians have considered committing suicide in the last year. That’s a powerful statistic, right? I would say some of the signs are, do you feel like you’re at a place where you can’t do what you used to be able to do? You try to get things done and then all of a sudden it’s like you hit this mental wall and you just can’t move any farther. Do you find yourself getting really angry at different things? Things that used to not make you angry. Do you become emotional at different times? Maybe it’s tears, maybe it’s different things. For me, a simple thing was the ringing of a phone. It got to that place where the phone was ringing or something was distracting, or my kids, if they started screaming, man, all of a sudden that just set me off.

Ezra Byer:
I was like, wait, that’s not normal. I shouldn’t have that level of reaction. I would say, if you’re married, listen to your spouse, they know you well, and get some feedback from them and be honest with them. But then even coworkers, listen to the signs that coworkers make, the jokes that they make. Are they constantly making jokes? Well, you know, Jeff, he’s pretty stressed again, he’s been this way for… That might be some indicators that, hey, yeah, I’m going down this journey and I need to get some help.

Mathieu Yuill:
For me. I’m not sure if I shared it on this podcast, but I went through a few times actually in my life, I’ve had to live with depression and work on coming out of it. For me, the telltale sign is I would not want to get out of bed in the morning, then I’d eventually get out of bed and get to work. Then I wouldn’t want to leave work, and then I’d come home and I wouldn’t want to go to bed. Then I’d eventually go to bed, then I wouldn’t want to get up. It was just this continual delaying of the next thing.

Ezra Byer:
That’s a great way to describe it.

Mathieu Yuill:
Yeah, I remember at one point when I thought, if I just didn’t have all this responsibility, I’d be okay. This is when I was in a director role. I was applying for a 15 hour a week, minimum wage, nonprofit communications coordinator job. My wife physically grabbed me. She’s like, what are you doing? You need to address this right now. I’m so thankful for her in that moment because I probably would have gotten that job. I probably would have gotten that job, and I would have taken it. So, yeah, thank God for her that day, and for every other day, of course.

Mathieu Yuill:
I want to just give you a few phone numbers. The Canada Crisis Prevention Service is +1 833-456-4566. That’s actually the Suicide Prevention Service, or you can text start, which is 741-741. They’ll get back to you. The Crisis Line in Canada is +1 888-353-CARE 2273, that’s 24/7. There are trained workers that can guide you through a lot of problems, such as depression, poverty, abuse, et cetera.

Mathieu Yuill:
In the States, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is +1 800-273-8255. It’s available in English and Spanish. In Canada, the US, the UK, and Ireland, there is a crisis text line. You just text HOME to 741 741. That’s in the States and in Canada, same number in the UK and Ireland is different, but just Google crisistextline.org. You’ll come up with it.

Mathieu Yuill:
Ezra, man, thank you so much for coming on and sharing, both personally and also what you’ve seen through the eyes of leadership. For leaders today that are listening, they maybe don’t know if they’re suffering from this, or they might know somebody who is, please share with them, you talked a lot about writing, you are a writing machine, you have a lot of content, where can people find it?

Ezra Byer:
Easiest one, I run a podcast called themondaychristian.com. That’s where it is. That’s where all the resources can be found. That’s an easiest one if you want to do a couple, but I know a lot of people that just like the Amazon realm, so it’s on Amazon as well.

Mathieu Yuill:
Perfect, and this book, when does it come out? When can people get their hands on it?

Ezra Byer:
Mid February. That will be the launch date.

Mathieu Yuill:
Okay, we’re going to put a link in the show notes. It’ll be on the Leading with Nice website, leadingwithnice.com. Ezra, again, thank you so much. I also got to thank… I do the easy part. I just ask people I find really cool questions so I can learn more, but behind me, there is a guy named Austin Pomeroy. He takes care of all the audio. He’s going to make us sound. Our voices are actually two octaves higher than what you’re listening to right now, you would never know. He’s going to make us sound awesome, booming like golden voice, so thank you, Austin. Jamie Hunter, he’s a guy who takes all this content, makes it a great blog post, gets all the promotion out there so everybody knows about it. Cindy Crake, she helped book you. I tell her, I’d really like to speak to like, Barack Obama. The next thing I know, Cindy’s got Barack Obama booked, well, not really booked for the podcast, but she’s amazing. I so appreciate her, all three of them.

Mathieu Yuill:
Thank you for listening. Again, if you want to hear more, leadingwithnice.com. Ezra, we will talk to you again soon.

Ezra Byer:
Thank you.